S2 Ep. 10 Heartbreak Hotel

Tune in as MaryGrace and Jordan McCann (Assistant Director for Sexual and Relationship Health) give some pro-tips to heartbreak in your 20s. College can be a fun time to date, but when you catch the feels... it can be hard to bounce back! Learn from the mistakes we made and how you can practice some healthy coping mechanisms if you find yourself with a broken heart. In the wise words of Taylor Swift, "Don't blame me, love made me crazy".

Resources
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Transcript

MGJ: Welcome to the well Dukes podcast. My name is Mary Grace and I will be your host today. We're going to chat a little bit about heartbreak, which is never really a fun topic but definitely a necessary one, especially during your college years.

And we have one of our favorite recurring guests here today so I will let her introduce herself.

Jordan: Hello. Yeah, I'm Jordan McCann, I am the Assistant Director for sexual and relationship health and I am very excited to be back on the Well Dukes podcast and talking to you about this today, Mary Grace.

MGJ: Yeah and Jordan you have a lot of really great information to share with us today. But I do want to go ahead and start with some of the science behind heartbreak, because I know you have some really great information there that I was very intrigued to find out.

Jordan: Yeah, and not going too in-depth about it but I think it’s really interesting because right off the bat we need to acknowledge that having your heart broken sucks; like we just, like, name it, it hurts. Like it's called it, you know, this term- I don't even know when I got started using-but the analogy that our heart is breaking or broken is because it's painful, and probably most people during college years, if not already, are going to experience heartbreak of some sort or feeling, you know, this sense of sadness or disappointment. It's going to happen and, yeah, first and foremost just naming it: It sucks.

But there's been some studies done and, like, especially for people that are, you know, experiencing heartbreak or a loss of romantic love and however that person's defining it.

But these brain studies showed that that withdrawal of romantic love actually activated the same mechanisms in the brain that are activated when someone is going through a withdrawal of substances, like a drug use, and is experiencing withdrawals there too.

So it's kind of like, there is actual study behind it that, yes, there are cognitive impairments, you know, it affects our decision making it affects our behavior, you know, and that these emotions that we feel that are so deep and there's so many analogies you know about what it feels like. But it's- there's actually scientific studies and medical evidence showing that it does impact our brain.

MGJ: Yeah, I guess Kesha was right when she said that your love is my drug or Taylor Swift quotes it, like so many different people do. And so, we are definitely seeing here that, you know, it's true, like that withdrawal of the love that we are all looking for hurts, and it can be like that physical aching over a relationship, and whatever definition of relationship that is, because a lot of times in college we see people in more, like, open relationships, like we were just talking, but that doesn't mean that it isn't still impactful, that it doesn't still hurt. And so, Jordan, we talked about how we even experienced this decrease of IQ during a time of breakup. Tell me a little bit more about that.

Jordan: Yeah, I think, kind of, you know, in the beginning, sometimes, in the beginning of a relationship you also are doing things like, “This seems so unlike me” and you're making all these behavior changes and you're doing things you normally didn't do because you like that person so much. It also happens at the Id sometimes so it's not that you, basically, said like experiencing this emotional pain can also impact our IQ which can lead to someone making decisions and choices that they wouldn't normally make and kind of going back to even that like, kind of, again we're not saying that it's exactly the same as someone experiencing withdrawal symptoms from substances, but this sense of addiction. And, you know, that kind of again withdrawal or not having that not activating the brain in the same way anymore, can impact the IQ and can impact our decision making and that maybe means you know, sending those text messages that maybe we should have thought about before, or maybe we really didn't mean to, you know, saying things that you just, you may be feeling so many different emotions at once, and you're grasping, just trying to kind of get that connection back. I will speak from personal experience even, you know, like, after that heartbreak, yeah, there's definitely been some, some text maybe you know it's like, Hmm, maybe I shouldn't have done that right or like, maybe, you know, going out with friends and then saying things we really don't mean about that person, right, maybe we try to protect ourselves by saying other things about the relationship and that's not the case about the other person or the ex. But yeah, it definitely impacts our rational decision making.

MGJ:  From personal experience I can also say I've made some regrettable decisions, sent some regrettable texts, said not very nice things to my girlfriend's about said person. But we are going to focus on some healthy coping strategies, because if we can avoid any of those regrettable decisions, I'm totally here for that. So, our first one we're going to start off with is allowing yourself to wallow. So Jordan if you want to take this one away, tell us a little bit more about some of those healthy strategies we can utilize.

Jordan: Yeah. So wallow. Feel the feelings. Have your pity party. Like, it's okay. I've heard a few different things but I think the important thing to talk about is there's not one set formula for people on how long these emotions are going to feel, and some people equate it to, like, the five stages of grief, you know, like there's there's anger and there's bargaining and then there's denial and then you know kind of acceptance, right these stages, and some people may go through those stages and may take longer in certain stages but, yeah, it's not going to be the same for everyone. There's no set kind of umbrella formula for how long someone is going to take to “get over” someone or get over the relationship because the reasons people break up or a relationship ends, are also going to vary, so of course that's going to play a role. The length of the relationship is going to play a role. So I think first and foremost is don’t be really hard on yourself, you know, and try to tell yourself like, “I've got to, okay, moving on, right away, like, let's go, let's get over this person, I don't need them, let's forget about it,” but actually, like, you know, it's okay to feel those feelings and maybe if you're someone that does try to avoid feeling those feelings, maybe they don't come right away, right? Maybe the first step was kind of like, okay, whatever I'm moving on. And then those feelings might creep up a little bit later. So I think it's just, if you do notice that you are like having sadness or confusion, anger, again like the reason that the relationship ended is certainly going to play a role in the feelings that you may have. But yeah, there's no there's no timeline there's no like well, because you dated for a year it's going to take you like one thing I've heard is, you know, half of the relationship, so it's gonna take you six months to get over it or, a month for every year you dated, you know, there's all these different things but it's going to be, you know, dependent on so many factors and for the individuals involved.

MGJ: You know, we want to get over that part. It sucks to feel that, and we're just like, “Okay so like, why is it been two months and I'm not ready to move on, or why has it been whatever period of time, why do I still feel this way?” It sucks. And we absolutely know that from experience, and sometimes you're losing more than just your boyfriend or girlfriend or significant other. There's so much more to that. Not only might you be best friends with this person, but you might also really connect with their friends, their family. That can be really hard as well. 

Jordan: Yeah it's also, maybe not everyone, but, you know, hopefully this partner or this person that you had been with, you were in that relationship for a reason, they gave you support, they  were your best friend, you've laughed together, you had shared hobbies and interests. Yeah, like you said, maybe you were friends beforehand and you have friends that are together, you adopted a pet together. There's a lot of things that also end when a relationship ends right so you're, you're losing more than just that one person and I think maybe sometimes that's not also considered. And, again, giving people grace that recognizing, like oh wow yeah like there are so many other parts of this relationship that I've gained or, you know, that were also important to me that- Now my life looks different, right? The idea, or future or, you know, six months down the road, maybe you had plans or something you were excited about and then the relationship ends and it's also just accepting that. No reason that someone is going to make heartbreak easy, like, maybe in rare cases it is truly amicable and mutual but there’s still hurt there. Most of the time you just have to accept what the reason you are given, you know, and be willing to let go of that and that's hard to accept, it's hard to hear that and truly accept and believe. But that's also I think the good thing is trying to allow yourself to be willing to move on is would also be the first step and feeling those feelings, accepting them and then looking, you know ahead to the future and whatever that may bring.

MGJ: Sometimes we look back on the relationship after it's over. And we're not connecting the dots as to where something went wrong. It's not always that something went wrong for the relationship to end. And so you're left sitting there without closure. And that's something that we hear a lot more often: “Oh just want closure. I just want to text them one more time because I want closure from this.” The realistic viewpoint is that we don't always get that closure that we want. You can have to weigh it, like, is texting this person going to make me feel better if I ask them for this. They might not even respond, so you know if you're doing it in person, that might be more of like an amicable conversation, but you still might not get any answers, and so we want to make sure that we're reflecting back on the relationship, realistically, whenever we're looking back at that.

Jordan: Yeah, it's easier to move on when we have a clear understanding of why it ended in the first place. But that may not always be so visible and obvious in the beginning, right, it might take time to truly look back and be like, “Okay, I understand why, you know, this ended now,” and maybe it's that “Oh, we weren't on the same page.” Emotional maturity also varies, you know, around 19 to 22. Some people are a little bit more emotionally mature than others, and that is also okay, you know, and sometimes maybe giving grace to that person that maybe they weren't quite ready for, you know, the serious relationship I had been hoping for or wanting. But I think it's also reflecting on the relationship realistically, like, being able to kind of look back and you know kind of see like, “Was I creating expectations that maybe weren't realistic, or was I creating and wanting these expectations of my partner and I didn't really communicate to them about that.” And maybe sometimes it's a shorter term relationship, you know, like you hung out a few times and maybe you were really hitting it off, you really like this person but maybe they just kind of weren’t on the same page, you know, I think it's hard, like, so often sometimes people were like, “Okay I want a serious relationship,” or I'll turn to you Mary Grace, I'm a little out of it so all the terms used, right, whatever type of relationship someone's looking for. Ask yourself, “Is it possible that this person really wasn't your soulmate, future spouse, whatever you know that you were wanting this relationship to turn into?” Is it possible that they were just a cliche to say but like truly a page or chapter in your book of life or whatever, and you can continue moving forward and maybe that's a good place to start reflecting on like just asking, “Is it possible that maybe this person wasn't the one for me?” And using that as a growth opportunity as well, right, looking back on the relationship and reflecting on it, and using that to be like, okay, this is why it didn't work out or this is what I didn't like. I really did enjoy having a partner that did this for me but here's one thing that this person couldn't give me, and I want to make sure that's in my next relationship, right. So using it as a growth opportunity, writing those things down or telling yourself that creating boundaries, possibly for your future relationships too, could be really helpful. What you want to make sure that you have in that, and whatever future relationship comes forward.

MGJ: Sometimes you're left at the end of the relationship and you're thinking, “Oh, I really messed up there, like, how could I do this to this other person.” And you're reflecting realistically and realizing that it's not one sided. There are many mistakes made by both parties, some of that being within communication, some of that being, you know, I was maybe under the influence and said or did something that really hurt my partner because that is realistic. You could realize that even though so many songs always want to villainize or, like, put the full responsibility for the breakup, on the other person, both parties are making mistakes because no one is perfect, and you can't expect that you are the perfect significant other and your partner just did all the wrong things. So we want you to really think about that, and realize that, it's a two-way street. And in that next relationship you want to make sure that, you know, maybe I have some stuff to work on before I'm ready to be in another relationship.

Jordan: We might hear that “It's not you, it's me” Sometimes it is you, too. And sometimes it's us, and that's okay, that's okay too, right. Especially at our college age. There's so much already, like, self identity going on, learning who you are, learning how you work with someone else or in a partnership with someone else. All of that is totally fine to be using as a learning experience. I think what's also important to note too that, no matter what the length of relationship or the fact that the relationship failed, if that's a word someone may relate to or like, oh, it didn't work out because, you know, they kept wanting me to talk about my feelings more, which is really hard to do, to be vulnerable with someone, I think a lot of people can relate to that it's like, “I don't even know what I'm feeling and my partner kept asking, like, they just wanted to talk about feelings” and maybe you just weren't there. But also, that doesn't define you and the value that you can bring to relationships in the future, or doesn't define you and who you are as a person, per say, like, there is always room for growth and I think as long as people are still willing to remember that, and maybe some people are also like, “That was not a good experience and, like, I don't even want to date for another five years,” and that's also okay to.

MGJ: Yeah, I heard some of the students that I've worked with in the past be like, “Oh, well, you know, I've started seeing this new guy and they are just out of a really bad relationship; like their last significant other was just, like, awful. And so, like they're not ready to get into a relationship and so I'm just going to be there for them.” You also have to realize that there is growth that needs to happen between those places. There's a time when you might be looking for a long term relationship, but when you're coming out of one that might have really hurt you, you might also be looking for a fling or someone to hang out with. And that's okay too. As long as you're on the same page with your significant other, and being clear about what your expectations and boundaries are. It’s okay to get out of a relationship and realize that, “I'm just going to date myself for a while; I don't really want to go back into the messiness of dealing with someone else. I just really need to work on myself” and focus on really whatever area of your life you feel like would make yourself feel better and work yourself towards a goal that you might have.

Jordan: Yeah, I love that. We talked about a term “date yourself,” which, again, sounds very cheesy and cliche, like, okay, date myself- what does that mean? But another good thing, too, and I think a lot of people relate to this, is when there's a breakup or relationship ends and we're feeling, well, you know, hurt and anger- a good strategy is definitely keep yourself busy. So allow yourself to feel the feelings but also get yourself moving, keep yourself busy, and maybe a part of that is, in fact, date yourself. You can still do the things that you enjoy doing with your partner, it's just going to look a little different. Like you, in fact, can go to the movies by yourself. You can go alone. It's okay. It is not a two person thing, like, if that's what you really liked- going to movies together- and you're a big movie fan, you can go to the movies by yourself or you can go to a restaurant and eat by yourself. I remember being an undergrad and I did that. My friends thought I was crazy, like, “Oh my gosh, you're so brave.” But it's, like, sometimes it's nice to be alone like, but it's okay, like yeah, I know it may sound just unthinkable or absurd, but like, take yourself out to dinner and maybe it's not like a super expensive fancy dinner or anything but maybe it's like, yeah, go to Panera alone and like order and just sit there by yourself and enjoy time with yourself, or you know, use that time to read or something like go to a coffee shop alone- like, you can still do those things, you know, maybe you make new friends doing them. And, of course, working here at UREC, we know is also a great option for people who want to come and, again, physical activity and that release of endorphins can be very helpful. 

MGJ: Sometimes it's nice to just punch a punching bag. Take a boxing class and like, get some of that aggression out and get some of that anger out. 

Jordan: Yes, plug for our new group training space, like, a lot of great things there to do. Yeah, but so keeping yourself busy, and maybe there was something you, like, always try to get your partner to do and you may have loved your partner, right and and idealize them, and they were so great and they probably worked for that time but there were probably things that maybe you didn't always agree on, or maybe there was something you always wanted to do and they just never wanted to. Well guess what, now it's your time to do that- right now! It's the time, you know, you can actually binge that TV series that you've been wanting to because your partner never wanted to do it, right, or the documentaries. Yeah, there's so many options and things to do here at JMU and around Harrisonburg. You know, a lot of options. I think that it is a really good thing to keep yourself busy, give your mind, you know, saying “distractions” may not sound healthy but it also is. My own personal experience was like, I'm a big music person. Music really does help. I make sure to also balance it. You know, sometimes I have my sad songs, you know, that I want to feel to evoke some emotions, but then I also have my, like, energy, my workout, my singalongs that, like, I know are going to make me feel better and, you know, I can dive into just finding new music that's going to help me feel better.

MGJ: For me personally sometimes we turn on sad Taylor Swift and cry in the shower. Sometimes we turn on mad Taylor Swift and scream it out, and sometimes I'm like, okay, I'm good, I'm with my girls, like, let's turn on, like, that peppy Taylor Swift because you know, I'm a Taylor Swift Stan and her relationship wheel has ranged very far over the years. And so there is a time and place for each of those like stages of grief. We want to keep our minds busy because we don't want them obsessing over that ex because we might realize from past mistakes that it's not great to know their favorite hangout spots and casually run into them and just, you know, see how good we're doing now or someone else around. 

Jordan: Yeah there is a line. There’s things to know right like things your ex is going to continue doing, right, but we don't want to be stalking. We don't want to be encroaching on their boundaries. We want to respect that the relationship is over. I totally get it, like, sometimes you do want to have that like, “Maybe they'll see me and see how great I'm doing,” right? But that's not something we want to be doing on a daily or weekly basis. Also keeping yourself busy. And we don't mean that keeping yourself busy by obsessing over social media posts and reading through all of your old texts, and, you know, looking at all the old pictures. That may be in those beginning stages of feeling those feelings, like the morning of that loss, like, “I don't have it anymore.” But that's also, yeah, keeping yourself busy because you've spent an hour and a half, going through, like, the five levels of investigation to, like, figure out who this new person is that they're seeing, and again I’m speaking from experience. I did it and it’s mortifying to look back on it, but it's realistic. Yeah, No, it happens and it's, it's hard because it's right there, it is easy, and there is certainly a level of willpower involved. So also, kind of, set those boundaries too, like, some people may think it seems petty to block or unfriend an ex or their friends on social media, like, “No no no I want to make them know that, you know, like, I've moved on, I’m fine, I don't need to, like, unfollow them.” But if you find yourself still like when you do see their post or you see something that they've been tagged in or anything like that and it gets those emotions going, like, maybe it is better for your own mental health, right, and your emotions to not see it at all. I am a kind-of firm believer in the out of sight out of mind philosophy, like, it really does help. And that's not to say like you're trying to forget that person completely, but it does take time to get over and so that it can help. 

MGJ: And I think another point to make here would be, you know, if your ex is seeing someone new, it's easy to slip into the comparison, you know like, looking at my ex and being like, “Oh, he's seeing a new girl like, well let me go look on her page. Oh well she's so much better at this or that than me,” and then even putting that other person down with your friends, like, it's just not a good feeling. And so trying to keep the energy up while avoiding the rumination on that relationship is just really important. And, you know, if you're thinking back and you're like, “Man, like, I just really miss the sex with this person, like, it was just so good.” There are options other than, you know, getting over someone by getting under someone else. 

Jordan: Yeah. No, I mean, that's very valid too. If sex was a part of your relationship and you're like, “Oh my gosh what am I going to do now, sex is really good, I really liked it,” that's totally valid. And masturbation is always an option and I'd seen this one time and like I love it: masturbation won't break your heart. Now again, healthy coping with it, using that as a way but also knowing that we don't want that to become unhealthy and obsessive and, you know, turning into unhealthy behaviors, with masturbation and using that, again, like you said, trying to hook up with people because that's going to help take your mind off of it. Because usually the sex really isn't going to be that good if you're still thinking, you know, you still haven't processed those emotions, right? And so I just wanna go back to what you're saying, Mary Grace, is, yeah, those intrusive thoughts, you know, and especially if your ex is now with someone else, you know, even right there when we talk about sex like, oh gosh, like, you know, comparing. Those intrusive thoughts are probably going to happen and I think it's also important to recognize that they probably are going to happen because that's going to better equip someone to deal with them and kind of be like, “Okay, I'm feeling this and oh my gosh I keep thinking about this,” and knowing like, all right, it's going to happen and so when they do happen just kind of let them come in and go out, right. And I know that it's easier said than done. It is hard not to kind-of ruminate and dwell on those and compare. Yeah, comparing is tough, but, you know, I think, like I said earlier, is reminding yourself that there's so many people here to meet and it's now a lot, well, I think young adults may argue that it's not easy to find people, but, like, it really is to like connect and meet with other people, maybe a little harder, you know, still with now that we're still within a pandemic but there are so many other people out there and, again, there's still a lot of time for you to find someone that is going to check all those boxes that you're wanting and give you the things you need and whatever that relationship looks for, right, whether it's someone that's just to have a lot of fun with; It’s someone to actually develop romantic and loving feelings with; If it's someone that's going to support you in XYZ other ways. I remember back then my mom would tell me “it takes time to heal” and you're like, “I don't want to hear it.” It’s not helpful even if it is the truth, it is absolutely the truth. Time heals all wounds, right, like these cliche things but, I mean, I remember I'm like, “I don't care about that. I am feeling these feelings right now. I'm so upset. I can't believe this. My world feels like it's totally shattered. What am I going to do?” You know, like, all these questions and thoughts but I think, you know, giving yourself grace to be like this happens. I am not alone. Other people feel this and it's just not always talked about, again because like so many other things, what we see in the media to have like how people may do this, are these, maybe more unhealthy coping strategies in dealing with breaking up and heartbreak you know what we hear in the songs, what we see on the TV shows in the movies, what our friends have done, you know, may not always also be the best thing.

MGJ: Absolutely. I think that the media portrays a lot of those unhealthy things that we see and mostly because they're dramatic and they make for good TV, not because they are the best way to get over someone or to move forward. And, you know, you just have to equip yourself with knowing where you are mentally and knowing how or what works best for you. And there are a lot of really great resources out there, you know, we have the TOA resource through the Counseling Center, and that can give you some really great tips and tricks for those ruminating thoughts. This is really the time to work on yourself, reconnect with yourself, and reconnect with your friends because we know that when you have a significant other, you want to spend a lot of time with them. There might be a point where you have spent so much time with your significant other that you have isolated from your friends or you just don't spend nearly as much time with them as you used to. And so, a breakup is a perfect time to reconnect with those relationships that you maybe put on the backburner. When you were in love and engrossed with this other person.

Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. So I think if anyone is listening and maybe they're not experiencing the breakup but they have the friend is, like I said, giving them some grace, you know, you may be a little miffed that like I haven't talked to them in weeks or like a bear you know we haven't hung out a lot. And it's you know remembering that they were excited about this person, they really liked this person, x you know whatever, and it's not necessarily, they're like, Okay, I'm just not going to come crawling back to you but, understandably, they are still looking for that support, and that social connection with someone and I think maybe just, you know, giving a little grace there and, and if you are someone that you're like, oh yeah I really like, You know, I kind of was like just starting to like become friends with my roommate and then I met this person and like then we just really didn't hang out all that much because I was always at my, my exes you know that's where I stayed at night all the time and all of this and it's like, all right, so maybe I'm realizing like I need to work on that relationship. You know, hopefully people kept up with their relationships and they had a. They had a life outside of their partner to write that it was healthy. But yeah, I think also just remembering to like you are going to have, whether its family or friends or people in an organization you're a part of, there's going to be people still that you can talk to and connect to it, and also using this time now to make new relationships with people.

MGJ: Yeah, and it's easy to feel lonely after you enter a relationship. That's normal. It's easy to sit there and think, oh I don't really have anyone to go to right now like I don't want my new friends to see me crying over this dude that I just broke up with, because that puts you in a vulnerable place, but another really great thing about that is vulnerability leads to connection. And it's ok to allow your friends to come in and see a side of you that they haven't seen before they are. That is what really creates those best friendships, because they're there for you, through thick and thin. And so, focusing on that and spending a little bit more time with either new friends or those that have been with you through, however many different relationships. That's, that's the time when you get to make those really fun memories with these friends getting to kind of make those new memories and have other things to focus on. and I'm really looking forward to. You might also have the friends who come in and they are you know they're all for spending more time with you, they're all for you know hyping you up and being there for you being your wing man or woman or your wing person when you go out. But there also might be some friends who are there to throw down some, some words about your ex. Not all your friends are always going to like your significant other, and that's fine, but you also don't want to find yourself in a place where that's all you talk about either. 

Jordan: Yeah, yeah I know there's a good chance you might have that friend is like I've been waiting for this because they were terrible and they totally made you this person you weren't and, and to them that's their reality right and that's how they, so they believe that and you may be in a place where you, you know, again, maybe you have that one time we were like yeah yeah yeah like they did these things but all of that negativity probably isn't truly going to help you know. And so this can also be a great time to, like I say practice, better communication or being assertive, just with that friend like I get it I hear what you were saying I know they may be you.  You care about me. And because you care about me You saw that maybe they weren't treating me, the best way that I should be treated right and so I hear you and what you're saying. And please also understand that. Just, like, I'm still hurting I'm still processing you know the fact that I spent, you know, maybe yeah maybe this looking back I was like, I'm still processing that I allowed myself to stay in that relationship for so long, when they weren't a good partner and they weren't a good significant other, so like I hear you friend but also like okay, like you know sometimes I just need you to listen right now like I just need you or can we talk about something else.

MGJ:  Yeah, I think that's also a good strategy to add to practice that or you know be, be mindful of that and let's not forget that sometimes you're already in the same friend group as your acts. And so, you might still just like be hearing the remnants of like your other friends who do still hang out with them. And that can be hard, but there's also a place where you might need to say to a friend. You know I'm not over this yet like I can't hear about my ex all the time. I know that you guys are still friends and I can respect that. But maybe just try to avoid that topic around me. Okay, to set those boundaries. 

Jordan: Yeah. Great point. Absolutely.

MGJ: So Jordan, I know that we have talked through a lot of different great coping strategies and some of the things that you know we've been there, so we're going to move forward from that and try to help you all, avoid some of those same mistakes, but I do have a fun question for you now. And that would be, what is your go to like heartbreak song or back in the day when you were experiencing heartbreak, what was it.

Jordan: Florence in the machine and some songs, they're like, there's definitely a few country songs also that I'm not a big country music person but there are definitely a few songs that like I can you know just kind of belt out. Para more like I'm dating myself here. I think they're all still good. Yeah, but I I was definitely the type that when I was feeling submissions like physical activity was really good for me to like I was more of the like, Okay, I'm thinking about these things I'm feeling sad so I need to like, just go run or like would work out. I can just personally that was what was good for me and I definitely need like a good playlist. But, Yeah, nothing, nothing like super sad. I guess I'll say like I'm also glad that Adele's new album didn't come out, was it wasn't out years ago because I would totally be like sobbing into it. I've listened to the album I'm like I'm very grateful I'm in a place where like I don't really do this anymore, you know, like you don't need this. Yeah, I don't have a set of Florida, which I'm just a huge fan of. And I've, I've said that before and yeah some definitely more kind of the. I don't say it but like Girl Power like yes strong female like strong voices really powerful singing and, you know, not too much necessarily about the lyrics but just the music itself that's makes me feel good. 

MGJ: Yeah, I would say for me. Obviously Taylor Swift, but we know that often, that it comes from a one sided place and we will accept it for what it is. And I also really love like the sandbox playlist because, you know, it's sad music, but it's still like oh yeah like this is a bob like I can vibe with this. And then I would also say like, you know, newer music, there's ABC DfU, and that is a good one for like coming back from it, you know, and moving forward.  It's good to you know belt that Olivia Rodrigo these days but definitely got to balance out that that sad emotional music with your music that you're, you know, ready to get back out there ready for some girl power, because anybody can have real power, you know like, it's, it's a good time. Yeah, but, 

Jordan: no shame and I realized this as we've been talking to you know I think ultimately just that we want to normalize that these feelings are and I think oftentimes because of still the way things are portrayed that it's people may be resonating We're kind of generalizing you know the things we've been saying to women and females you know that they tend to because we know our society said like you know they're the more emotional ones, and it is still just as important to acknowledge and normalize that like men and young men and college like it's not talked about, especially when they're like real conversation you know it's like, oh come on let's just go out and let's go out and drink let's go party we're going to forget this right and, like, how, how crazy and think that actually it could be a conversation of like, I really don't want to go out, you know, can we can we stay in talk or like can I just like having these you know feelings like I know again that sounds probably like, I would never do that but I think it's important to normalize that and even talking about like music and stuff like yeah like you said like, We know that there are you know Everyone listen to Taylor Swift, like we know that there are plenty of fans of Taylor Swift better young men. They may not acknowledge it, but you can't help it those songs are catchy. Right.

MGJ: Absolutely. Yeah, and to know that as a young man like it's okay to have emotions like it just, it really is. I didn't know coming from Jordan and I, female identifying, We have that insight back to what we experienced but all of these tips and all of these little pieces of knowledge and information can help equip anyone to have any gender identity and expression.

Jordan thank you so much for being with us today,  you've given us a lot of good tips and tricks to think about moving forward and on the topic of heartbreak.

 Jordan: Yeah, of course. Happy to be here and I'm also realizing like this may have actually been been a little bit of like Cathartic  and therapy for me I'm like what was stuff, I would have wanted to hear right when I was 20 and experiencing this so in a way I also feel like I'm, I'm processing for myself 10 years ago. So thank you. Yeah, love being on the well Dukes podcasts, love to, you know, continue these conversations.

 MGJ: Absolutely. And you can tune into our podcast within the following weeks to hear a lot of other really great conversations, you can look back at some of our old podcasts as well because we have some great topics there, and to keep up with what we're currently doing you can follow us on social media @jmuurec and we would love to have you tune in to our upcoming well dukes episodes and as always be well dukes!